Sunday Afternoon (9/9)
Hi all:
Today we explored what assumptions we have of human beings, and most of the class seemed to assume that all human beings are seekers. We couldn't agree what people are seeking after, however. Peace, security, meaning, connection, relationship, and truth were some of the candidates suggested.
We also looked at ways in which "faith" is understood and utilized by people. Believing propositions, experiencing transcendence, or living in a larger narrative of meaning are three such ways to construe faith. (see George Lindbeck, The Nature of Doctrine, 1984.)
Well, what do you all think/feel/believe/wonder? Happy blogging!
Pastor Terry
12 Comments:
so, i'm still not clear how we reconcile the biblical admonition to take the gospel to all corners of the world and the concept that others may experience God differently than we do.
Good question, Mrs. Ferguson. I think many of us have asked this or similar questions as well.
I wonder if there is such a thing as "experience" apart from an interpretive filter. Some would suggest (myself included) that the story of Jesus produces a different experience of God than some other meta-story (e.g. Hinduism, Marxism, Judaism, etc.). Not necessarily "better," because "better" can only be defined from within some prior commitment (philosophical, theological, sociological, or whatnot). But it will be different.
If God is in Christ, then the storied actions of Jesus will lead us to think of God one way as opposed to another. And to experience God differently, too.
I think this is why so many linguists are eager to study those children who have been raised apart from language/culture/"civilization." Do these unfortunate children have the same experiences as other children even though they do not have a language where experiences are categorized?
In other words (I can get blah, blah, blah, I know): the experience of God according to the story of Jesus will be an experience that will necessarily be different from some other.
Again, different. We have no basis for saying "better," "truer," what have you. (Other than perhaps "Jesus is Lord.")
Anyone else want to chime in?
Buehler, Buehler?
Pastor Terry
But are we at least open to the possibility that a Christian can experience God in the same way as a Hindu, Muslim, or Jew? It makes me wonder why so many people have turned away from Christianity, my self included. I would suggest that the reason why there are so many sects of Christianity is because people experience God in different ways. And those who have turned away experience God in yet another way and go off to seek a religion that can explain to them that what they feel and experience as God is not wrong.
I think that if we look at the spiritual gifts, we can see that there is an inate regonition within Christianity that we experience God in different ways. A teacher will feel God's presence in a completely different way than say a healer or a prophet. The way our society has evolved, it seems that for the most part, we discount intense experiences such that a prophet or healer may have to the point that we have burned them at the stake or excommunicate them. Now our society expects that our experience of God should be reserved, lack emotion, lack pleasure and joy. Perhaps because emotion and joy are associated with the potential for sinful actions?
Terry, could you elaborate a bit on the "if God is in Christ" paragraph? I ask because this makes me think of a couple of sayings that were often used in my yoga/meditation (not exercise yoga) practice to remind us of who we really are - "God dwells within as you" and "the heart is the hub of all sacred places, go there and roam". So with this assumption, every person, and ultimately every thing becomes sacred. But I digress.
I have also wondered about the idea of taking the gosple to all nations. Are the nations the 12 tribes?
Colleen,
As usual, insightful questions! Let me offer some thoughts, maybe helpful, maybe not.
"But are we at least open to the possibility that a Christian can experience God in the same way as a Hindu, Muslim, or Jew?" Certainly many theologians affirm this very view. One of the great Roman Catholic theologians of the 20th century (Karl Rahner) referred to those he called "Anonymous Christians"--those who have the redeeming experience of Christ, without actually knowing that experience as such. Rahner is very much an Experiential/Expressivist kind of thinker. As I mentioned Sunday, I think C.S. Lewis hints at this view in the Narnia books, and in some of his scholarly works on myth.
The Cognitive/Propositionalist would have a harder time making this kind of affirmation, since "propositional truth" outweighs any consideration of "religious experience."
The Cultural/Linguistic thinker would suggest that, since all experience seems to be experience-as something, then the kinds of experiences a Christian has would be different than the kind of experiences someone of a different "linguistic culture" would have. Not better, since there is no neutral basis for assessing this; only different.
I think your observation about different people having different experiences, even Christians, is right on, and in a way, helps make the point of the Cultural/Linguist. People are taught/conditioned what experiences to have, even what experiences are normative, even what experiences are experiences of. A great example of this is from the Simpsons Movie, where grandpa has an ecstatic experience in church, with prophetic utterance and such, and Homer's solution is to take the family out for waffles. Marge says, "What's the point of going to church all these years if we just ignore a religious experience when it happens?" Wonderful observation!
As for God being in Christ, I take this to mean that God is uniquely in Christ doing something special, in a way God is not ordinarily present in the lives of others/all. Whether the presence of God in Christ is one of degree or kind, I will leave for another discussion. Suffice it to say, I think the Anglican liturgy which says that "God is all in all" is quite good.
I think too many Christians make the mistake of saying since God is doing something special in Christ, then therefore that means God is not doing something significant in others or in other places.
The great Christian mystics (Julian of Norwich, Theresa of Avila) seem to think that the more we focus on Jesus, the more we see God in everyone and everywhere. In other words, they think that specificity leads to greater inclusion, not greater exclusion. I agree.
The word "nations" is actually "ethnoi," sometimes translated "gentiles" (not "tribes") but also "cultures." There is no culture beyond God's loving care and concern. But more on this Sunday!
Thanks for the clarification, which, as usual, leads to more questions...
You said, "God is uniquely in Christ doing something special, in a way God is not ordinarily present in the lives of others/all." So if we strive, or seek, to live like Christ or follow his Way (which incidentally is what Tao means - the Way), do we not ultimately seek to have a similar experience of God the father that Jesus did? So, what God does in Christ is not unique, but attainable to all seekers. It sounds to me like enlightenment, or is it heaven? Are they the same, just different languages/experiences of the divine?
i think we're all dancing around the question christians are afraid to ask: is salvation attainable with jesus christ not being involved? ie can we experience God without experiencing jesus?
Mrs. Ferguson:
I'm not sure I agree that "Christians are afraid to ask" the question whether there is salvation apart from Christ. Along with the problem of evil, this is the most asked question in my Crossroads/New Members class.
The shorthanded Reformed/Presbyterian position is that salvation of any kind and for any person is entirely God's decision. (The old doctrine of pre-destination--that God has from time and eternity decreed that some would be saved and some would be damned--is an extreme form of this position.) So in one sense--a very important sense--salvation (whatever that is; I would be interested in what you mean by the term) is God's gracious gift; certainly nothing that we "attain."
So the Reformed question is really, "Who does God want to save?" How we answer this question is dependent upon what kind of God we are dealing with. Or what kind of God we think we are dealing with, and is dealing with us.
Anyone else want to join in?
Pastor Terry
From the perspective of someone who has practiced religions other than Christianity, I would ask what is the purpose of salvation? In the religions I have practiced/studied (and had very intense experiences of GOd, I think) I have not, to my knowledge, encountered this concept of salvation. The possible exception would be in Buddhism in that Buddha taught that we can get off the wheel on incarnation in the current life, unlike the Hinduism I practiced where the goal is to get off the wheel but knoing that we may still have a few lives left to become
enlightened.
That said, as someone looking at Christianity, and who believes in God and has experienced God, I would ask how do Christians experience God? They do not still the mind through meditation, they do not show a blissful emotion of their experience of God, they seem to lack respect for God's creation. Were it not for my daughter, I would never have ventured back into a church. And had I not moved to Texas and joined this church, I probably would have continued to feel this lack of spiritual fullfillment and experience within Christianity. (Thanks Terry for getting me back on the path!)
Terry, I find this idea of the "anonymous Chrsitian" very interesting on different levels. One the one hand, one can read that there is still a certain amount of hubris within Christianity in that those of other religions cannot experience God with out Jesus. Yet on the other hand, one can see this as a beautiful expression of God's love for his creation in that God does not care if we have heard of Jesus or not. Jesus/God really does not discriminate against other religions as we humans tend to. With this latter view, Christians could let go of the need to proselytize to the heathens and really trust that God's will WILL be done on earth as it is in heaven. We thus do not need to interceed in God's work.
Peace!
I just got my computer back and on-line, and really enjoyed this discussion, very cool.
I want to post something I wrote earlier in the week as soon as can find it, but for now am just going to cut and paste my favorite evangalist motto from the Old Testament, and say that I am glad this church welcomes everyone.
Kurt
From Deutoronomy:
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. [a] 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates."
Kurt - Thank you for your post. I took a class in the philosophy of eastern religions in college. Our teacher told us that as we study each religion, we should attempt to set aside our beliefs and try to "practice" to the best of our ability what we were learning. With that in mind, as I read the passage from Deuteronomy 6:8-9 with an athiestic or non-Christian perspective, I am confused as to why Christians would include these verses along with 4-7 as evangelistic. I observe that some Jews put a mezuzah on their door and wear phylacteries during prayer, but Christians, as far as I know, do not follow these traditions. It would seem that Christians are either not following what they have been commanded to do, or they just pick and choose among the things that God is telling them to do.
This would lead me to another question or two. How is it that Jesus could be the Messiah when, throughout history so many Jews have suffered under the hands of Christians? Why did Christianity not adopt any of the Jewish traditions such as Passover or Rosh Hoshanna? Why do some Christians harbor anti-semetic views when Jesus himself was a Jew?
Having the benefit of having read the bible, which I assume an athiest would not, I could answer the question regarding traditions. The issue of anti-semetism I cannot understand since Jesus tells us to love our neighbours as ourselves.
Peace and blessings!
A fish on your car
A simple cross on your neck or finger
A candle in the image of a Saint
Take your pick, Christians have always displayed there Faith, hopefully by our actions and compassion more than by symbol
See the following link and check out the May 14th, 2006 sermon with Terry and Dr Nelson, Mothers Day, regarding the passage from Moses' second oration in Dtr, it is an excellent discussion
http://www.fpcaustin.org/worship/sermons.html
kurt
Kurt - thank you again for your post and recommendation of the sermon. Unfortunately, it did not answer my question - from the point of view of a non-Christian - as why Christian use the last 2 verses of Deut. 6:4-9 in evangelism. The reason being is that Jews still practice what is commanded in the last two verses. Please take some time to do a google search on the terms mezuzah and tefillin (phylacteries) and you will find that the act placing these veres on the door of Jewish homes is common, and while less common, the use of phylacteries is still practiced. So from the perspective of a non-Christian, who has knowledge of these Jewish practices, why do Christian use Deut.6:8-9 along with 4-7 in evangelism? I hope this gives a bit more insight into my question.
I realize that the answer will most likely not be fleshed out in this blog. I just want to try to bring the "spirit" of the book we are discussing in this class to this discussion.
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