Sunday Afternoon (9/23)
Hi all:
With the congregational meeting, we tried to squeezed an hour discussion into 20 minutes. Let's see if we can use this blog to extend the conversation a little.
Today we spoke of "meta-narratives" that inform our society. The big stories that we live by, or at least that many people live by. We came up with a few:
Violence is redemptive.
God is on our (whoever the "our" is) side.
The rich are rich because God has so blessed them; the poor haven't been so blessed.
Are there others that we missed? These are the principalities and powers that we may have given our allegiance to without even knowing it. And, as far as conversations with non-Christians are concerned, we may be presenting more than the Gospel. Or significantly less, as the case may be.
We didn't talk about what stories Christians need to affirm as followers of Jesus. The individual stories/narratives that indeed are--or ought to be--part of our set of "reality assumptions."
Wow, we did a lot in 20 minutes, didn't we? Let's see what happens this week!
Pastor Terry
13 Comments:
It's funny that two of the "meta-narratives" mentioned - God is on our side and being rich vs. poor because of belief in God - are a huge part of the reasons why I turned away from Christianity as a teenager. These ideas just don't make any sense because there are so many Christians who suffer in poverty and so many non-Christians who are wealthy. What kind of blinders must one wear to not see that in the world?
I missed the beginning of class (sorry) so I missed the part on violence being redemptive - is that hell, fire, and damnation? It makes so much sense that teens turn away. They were taught as children that Jesus loves them but at some point they are taught that this love is not unconditional and thus fear enters this mix. The thinking becomes "If I don't believe in God, then I'm going to burn in hell, be poor, and suffer great tragedy". How can one have an authentic relationship with God if they are coerced? I doubt God needs to stoop so low to get people to believe in him!
Perhaps the people we see as doubters are actually the ones who have the potential for the greatest faith. They just reject the idea that we have to fear God and seek elsewhere to find likeminded people. And there are those who, unable to find those likeminded people, eventually deduce that God must not exist.
I worked at a bookstore while home from college one summer. There was a woman I worked with who had worked at a Jewish bookstore. She gave me many suggestions of books to read about Judaism. One the "ideas" that I have kept with me was how Judaism looks at doubt. Doubt is encouraged because they observed that if a person doubts God but then comes back to God, their faith will be greater than before. So with that in mind, if we do encounter an atheist, I think we need to treat them with a lot more respect. Trust their path. Honor that they are seeking, just as we are, just as Mehta is. Ask them what made them an atheist in the first place and by all means - don't deminish their story, because it is most likely a major narrative in their life that they are not yet ready to let go of. Give them they tools they may need to get them back to God. But most of all, pray that God will light the fire in their heart that will illuminate their way home.
Peace and Love
"So with that in mind, if we do encounter an atheist, I think we need to treat them with a lot more respect. Trust their path. Honor that they are seeking, just as we are, just as Mehta is. Ask them what made them an atheist in the first place and by all means - don't deminish their story, because it is most likely a major narrative in their life that they are not yet ready to let go of. Give them they tools they may need to get them back to God. But most of all, pray that God will light the fire in their heart that will illuminate their way home."
AMEN!
And that is how Presbyterians ought to do evangelism...
Pastor Terry
Check out a recent interview with "the friendly atheist" himself. Enjoy!
Where can one find this interview? Looked on the friendly athiest website but didn't find it.
But the blog did bring up a question for me that relates to our "meta-narrative" and that has to do with the assumption that humans are imperfect. What doesn't make sense to me is that if we believe that God created us, and we believe that God is perfection, how can his creation be anything less than perfect? (Please don't think that this is some egotistical rant and that I think I'm perfect - it was definitely drilled into my little brain that nothing, and certainly not I, could be perfect.)
Do we have perfection in us? A latent image, like a picture on a negative that has yet to be developed? Does our free-will and sin lead us away from this perfection? Am I way out on a branch that is about to break under my weight?
Now I AM going to rant a bit. What if we did not tell our children, particularly our girls, that they aren't perfect? Didn't even bring perfection or imperfection into the mix. Could we improve their self-image? Could they learn to respect themselves enough that they would not seek out demeaning relationships? Could we save one girl from an eating disorder? From cutting, tattooing, over-piercing, abusive relationships, depression, or suicide? Could we collectively be responsible for our children's destructive or self-destructive behaviour because we teach imperfection? If we were, would we have the courage to take responsibility and do something to make a difference? Thanks for letting me rant. I wonder if anyone is listening besides Pastor Terry :-)
Peace
I have really enjoyed this book and am sorry to see the series ending so soon! Maybe we can keep the discussion going in this forum.
As a new Presbyterian, I can relate to some of Mehta's confusion and sense of "What's going on here?". And I'm a lifelong Christian. Our rituals and liturgy must seem strange, at best, to someone who's new to the scene.
I was delighted to discover that Mehta visited the church that I grew up in, First Lutheran Church in DeKalb, Illinois. I read the passage with great interest, secretly hoping that he'd love it as much as I did (and still do). No such luck. And I've gotta say, after reading his summary, I thought, "Yeah, that's pretty much how it is!" Of course, my subjective interpretation is much different than his. But the perspective of the friendly atheist gave me a new outlook on how things appear to a visitor.
Colleen, I think your comments on evangelism are right on. When we encounter someone who, like Mehta, is willing to take the risk of admitting that he or she is an atheist, let's take that opportunity to validate that position, and use it as a starting point for conversation. I appreciated Mehta's comments that he is not anti-God or anti-religion, he just wants more proof that God exists. This may be the way for many atheists; they know what they don't believe, but aren't sure what they do believe. I think that engaging in conversation with people whose beliefs differ from our own is mutually beneficial.
I keep thinking of that one comment from the university student:
"Pastor, I just want you to know I don't believe in God."
"Well, fine. Why don't you tell me more about this God you don't believe in. Maybe I don't believe in him either."
I suspect that atheists like Mehta have a valuable perspective on the sloppiness of some Christians' language; even on the inappropriateness of that language. At the very least, it is a conversation starter instead of a conversation ender.
Pastor Terry
I had the opportunity to attend a traditional Indaian wedding a couple of months ago. The groom was the son of one of the instructors at the school where my husband and I work. Throughout the elaborate ceremony, he would come and let me know what was going on, which was really nice because none of the ceremony was in English, and it was about 5 hours long!
I wonder if we could do a pamphlet of why we do what we do. We could then use it in welcoming new people to the church. Or we could just put it in with the mugs and kisses. Maybe we just take for granted that the people who walk through the door know what's going on. I had the opportunity to sit behind the man who was Pastor Sam's sponsor to ?? (I don't remember the country) It was interesting to observe someone who clearly had not spent much time in a church and was not acustomed to following the service in a bullitin. I must say I was relieved when Sam introduced him, because my inner anti-socialite was rearing its head and I had no idea how I would break the ice with him. Having something to give such a person would definitely help.
Great class, interesting book, lots of food for thought. My favorite take-away was the propositional-narrative spectrum discussion. I am on the far-right of that one.
A few statistics and a key question that lingers in my mind.
http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Topic&TopicID=2
Faith Groups
9% of US adults classify as evangelicals (2006) (see Evangelical category for more information)
36% of US adults classify as born again, but not evangelical. (2006)
Atheists and agnostics comprise 10% of adults nationwide. (2006)
10% of the US population identify with a faith other than Christianity (2006)
71% believe in God when described as the all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect creator of the universe who rules the world today. (2006)
7% believe that God is the total realization of personal human potential. (2006)
So my question is, who are we, the congregation of FPCA really concerned about? The 1 in 10 or 20 atheists out there (though the percentage is probably higher in Austin) that are "convertable" from an already small population? Or should we think about the other groups, the 40% that self report as christian but they might not attend church, have never read the gospels, don't volunteer, etc.
I'm talking about the disgruntled catholic, the "spiritual" guy/gal with the lutheran parents, the ones who believe in God but wonder who that Jesus dude was, the lost sheep in need of renewal.
Laura, I grew up in Belvidere, lived there from 64'-82'
Kurt
Kurt -- in response to you query "who are we, the congregation of FPCA really concerned about?"
i wish the answer were: the needs of the members of FPC
Now there's a loaded comment! Do we take for granted that the members get their needs met? But how can a member's needs be met if those needs are not articulated? (Last time I checked, FPC does not have courses in mind reading on the schedule! :-) Seems to me that opportunities to have one's needs met abound at FPC, in a way I have not experienced at other churches. Which is why I knew very quickly that this would be the church I would join. Maybe you could take a baby step outside your comfort zone and express your needs, concerns, hopes, fears, or whatever. I was not disappointed when I did. The Tao De Ching says: "the journey of ten thousand miles begins with a step"
Peace and blessings for your journey!
hi anonymous,
sticking with the thread of evangalism, I would argue that FPCA does serve its congregation quite well in those terms:
* we take an oath upon joining the congregation that indeed Christ is Lord
* we affirm that every sunday we attend a sermon
* some affirm it every day in prayer
* hopefully we all affirm it every day in the way we treat each other, in the choices we make, in our hearts
I was referring to evangalism within our community, of who we could bring to Christ now. This church, this pastor, this congregation is making a big difference in the life of my family, I would like to see it have the same effect on the whole neighborhood.
Finally, feedback is good, constructive or otherwise. Give it and receive it well, there is always something to be learned from another person's perspective. That is the way we learn and continuously improve, and I think this church has made a lot of changes in response to the needs of the congregation and community. There maybe differences of opinion on specifics or relative effectiveness, but it certainly is not for lack of trying at FPCA.
i guess i agree with colleen that you probably need to put a little more meat on the bone of the point you are making, and I hope you feel comfortable doing it
Kurt
After we discussed the connection between the sermon and the scripture readings (Lectionary) this Sunday, I found out that most Protestant faiths use the same Lectionary! Who knew?!
Exactly who figures this out?
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